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UPPER MANAGEMENT
Fantasy Sports Neighborhood
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Welcome to THE UPPER MANAGEMENT. Fantasy Sports Neighborhood.
You are currently viewing the UM as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features.
The UM opened August 17th, 2007 as a handpicked 100 members who were asked to join for their smarts and community involvement. But the word got out that the UM neighborhood is not just your average start up community! .... Members begun jumping in from word of mouth .. and now the UM stands at 300+ members and over 30,000 posts and growing!
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| AL Rookie of the Year |
| Evan Longoria (.270BA, 16HR, 46RBI, .340OBP, .532SLG) 'Started in May' |
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69% |
[ 16 ] |
| Jacoby Ellsbury (.275, 5HR, 23RBI, 53Runs, 34SB's) |
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30% |
[ 7 ] |
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| Total Votes : 23 |
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darko
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 5326
Location: Melbourne, AUS
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 Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Bizplayboy wrote: |
| Grid wrote: |
| superpoon wrote: |
...And to make BP happy, how about Chris Davis for AL ROY!!!!  |
If you really want to make him really happy, make it Davis for the AL, Bruce for the NL & then sign him up for a three way (& let Cueto watch).
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Don't forget to give Daryl Thompson a reach around!
Hooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!! |
Thompson will be taping it...
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lkat75
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I would vote for Longoria. he has been tearing it up lately.
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Bizplayboy
Website Admin
Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 5450
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Not looking good for Ellsbury, He's been slumping hard while Longoria continues to push on.
The Boston Globe speculates that the slumping Jacoby Ellsbury could be removed from the leadoff spot once David Ortiz returns from the disabled list. Ellsbury has a measly .234 on-base percentage over the past month, with an ugly 22/4 K/BB ratio in his last 119 plate appearances.
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youngbuck8100
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 3116
Location: Brookline, MA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Bizplayboy wrote: |
Not looking good for Ellsbury, He's been slumping hard while Longoria continues to push on.
The Boston Globe speculates that the slumping Jacoby Ellsbury could be removed from the leadoff spot once David Ortiz returns from the disabled list. Ellsbury has a measly .234 on-base percentage over the past month, with an ugly 22/4 K/BB ratio in his last 119 plate appearances. |
I think that Jacoby could get hot and stay at the bottom of the order. The Red Sox have seriously lacked production at the bottom of the order because of having the instant outs of Crisp, Varitek and Lugo there for most of the year. I think with Lowrie in for Lugo and now Ellsbury going to the bottom, the Sox lineup will be that much better from top to bottom.
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TheGrandSalami
Joined: 12 Jul 2008
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Guys, this one isn't even close. Jacoby Ellsbury is a decent player. Hits a bit, fast as hell, even a good fielder.
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I consider him along the lines of Soriano, Reyes, and Rollins, considering he's not even CLOSE to his prime. |
Is that a joke? Jacoby Ellsbury has a .332 on base percentage.
.332. For a leadoff hitter. Richie Sexson is only 13 points behind him. Seriously now. A leadoff hitter needs to get on base more than a third of the time, if he doesn't he better be hitting some homeruns but Ellsbury (unlike Reyes, Rollins, and Sori) has no more than 10 HR power. Just because he steals a lot of bases does not make him a good leadoff hitter, this is a common misconception that many people have.
Jacoby is overrated because of what he did in last year's playoffs. He has potential, yes, but this should be no contest.
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| Year round he's been producing at the same high level. |
No, he hasn't. He's on-based .220 for the last month. Get off the Kool Aid, Kazem.
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Grid
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 2097
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Longoria sure caught up with Ellsbury and buried that turd in a hurry... it's hardly a question right now.
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460 TD's and counting!
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UOKazem
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 476
Location: Montclair, New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Quote:
Year round he's been producing at the same high level.
No, he hasn't. He's on-based .220 for the last month. Get off the Kool Aid, Kazem. |
I posted that almost a month ago.... so you can't use the past month when judging the quote. How he played in the month AFTER I said that has nothing to do with that quote. At all.
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| .332. For a leadoff hitter. Richie Sexson is only 13 points behind him. Seriously now. A leadoff hitter needs to get on base more than a third of the time, if he doesn't he better be hitting some homeruns but Ellsbury (unlike Reyes, Rollins, and Sori) has no more than 10 HR power. Just because he steals a lot of bases does not make him a good leadoff hitter, this is a common misconception that many people have. |
.332 isn't a low OBP for a rookie. Lets take a look at the OBPs of great players who hit 1st;
Rollins in his first full three years - .323/.306/.320
Reyes in his first two half seasons and then his first full year - .334/.271/.300
Brian Roberts in his first two half seasons and then his first full year - .284/.308/.337
Sizemore in his first half year and first full season - .333/.348
Alfonso Soriano in his first full three years - .304/.332/.338
Carl Crawford in his first half season and first three full seasons - .290/.309/.331/.331
Granderson in his first half season then first year - .314/.335
Kinsler in his first two years - .347/.355
I have included ALL of the best players who hit first, except Ichiro, because his rookie stats are very misleading considering how old he was. He wasn't really a rookie.
Look at those numbers, from the best players at that spot in today's game, in their early years, and tell me that a .332 OBP doesn't average right in there. In fact, for first whole years, it ranks behind ONLY Kinsler and Sizemore, and not by more than 16 points. That's it. And it ranks significantly ahead of some other players such as Reyes and Rollins.
I'm not going to list the SB numbers, but he's on pace for more SB this season than ANY of those players had in ANY one of those seasons.
He also ranks second in the majors right now, and first in the AL in steals. He's not just good at stealing bases, he's already one of the best in the game. And his OBP, even brought down by his current slump, is comparable to all of today's greats at the first spot in the order.
We've got a player here who is the best at SB in his league and may finish top in the majors, plays gold glove defense (so far he has not made a single error in the majors, and he makes a ton of highlight reel plays), and has an average and OBP which are as good as any young stud at that spot in the order has had in a loooong time.
Oh and BTW, Longoria's OBP is only 15 points higher. Oh, and because Ellsbury has been playing in the crowded Boston outfield, he only has 20 more ABs than Longoria. So the numbers they've posted, they've had virtually the same ABs to do so.
Longoria's already made 7 errors this year. He's got 13 more homeruns, a 10 pt higher average and 15 point higher OBP, and 29 less steals. And Longoria's come down to Earth just as much as Ellsbury, with 3 homeruns (only 7 XBH total) over his past 24 games.
Ellsbury is having one of the best rookie seasons from the first spot in the order in a very, very long time.
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TheGrandSalami
Joined: 12 Jul 2008
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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OK. First things first. Rollins, Reyes, Roberts, Sizemore, Soriano, Granderson, Crawford, Kinsler.
Guess how many won Rookie of the Year?
None of them. Players who are rookie of the year aren't necessarily good players. Choosing simply the best players isn't the way to do it because they could've been late bloomers i.e. Rollins, Roberts, Crawford. I'm not saying Ellsbury isn't having a good rookie season, he is. But comparing him to Longoria is silly. Hell, Jerome Walton was rookie of the year. Was he any good? No.
Next thing. Using Longoria's error total against him is unfair, considering 3Bs make MANY MANY more errors than CFs. It just makes sense. More chances, more errors. Longoria is tied for the 4th fewest errors in the bigs among regular 3rd basemen. He's just as good a fielder as Ellsbury, and makes just as many highlight reels.
And you say that Ellsbury has had one of the best rookie seasons from the first spot...did you forget about Hanley Ramirez just two years ago? When he on-based .353 and stole 51 and knocked out 17 homeruns?
Stolen bases are one category. They alone do not make a player deserving of an award. Longoria basically outstrips Ellsbury in every other statistical category. Ellsbury scores more runs too, which is obvious since he hits leadoff and Longoria hits fifth. Longoria does everything. He hits, fields, runs a little, and has some pop. Ellsbury can steal bases. So I don't know what the discussion is, really.
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Scaps
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 599
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| He is on pace for 150 hits .265 8 HR 45 RBI 58 steals and 101 runs. It should be a photo finish for ROY with Longoria.
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UOKazem
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 476
Location: Montclair, New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Next thing. Using Longoria's error total against him is unfair, considering 3Bs make MANY MANY more errors than CFs. It just makes sense. More chances, more errors. Longoria is tied for the 4th fewest errors in the bigs among regular 3rd basemen. He's just as good a fielder as Ellsbury, and makes just as many highlight reels. |
Ellsbury - 202 TC/0 Errors
Longoria - 229 TC/ 7 Errors
They've relatively had the same number of chances. I don't know where "More chances, more errors" comes from, because often times center fielders have the second most chances on a team, aside from first basemen. Ellsbury's split between different spots in the field (LF/RF as well as CF) is the only reason his chances are down to 202. As a CF he averages more chances per game then Longoria does as a 3B. Aside from that, there is NO validity to that statement of "more chances, more errors". Ellsbury is one of FIVE qualifying outfielders in all of baseball with no errors. One of THREE center fielders, the others being Torii Hunter and Nate McLouth, both excellent fielders. Ellsbury has statistically been one of if not THE BEST fielding CF in all baseball this year, the same can't be said for Longoria.
As far as Longoria's error total, fielding percentage is more accurate because he did play a month less than most other qualifying 3rd basemen. He's also throwing to one of the best error saving first basemen in all of baseball, who has saved him several errors already this year.
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And you say that Ellsbury has had one of the best rookie seasons from the first spot...did you forget about Hanley Ramirez just two years ago? When he on-based .353 and stole 51 and knocked out 17 homeruns?
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So that's one player who's had a stronger season at that spot. That would give him one of the best... if you can only find one stronger start than his from that spot over the past decade.
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OK. First things first. Rollins, Reyes, Roberts, Sizemore, Soriano, Granderson, Crawford, Kinsler.
Guess how many won Rookie of the Year?
None of them. Players who are rookie of the year aren't necessarily good players. Choosing simply the best players isn't the way to do it because they could've been late bloomers i.e. Rollins, Roberts, Crawford. I'm not saying Ellsbury isn't having a good rookie season, he is. But comparing him to Longoria is silly. Hell, Jerome Walton was rookie of the year. Was he any good? No. |
I never compared him to any of those players in any category BUT OBP just to prove the point that a .332 OBP is not bad, especially for a first order player who steals. Ellsbury has stronger numbers in other areas including almost every fielding category and SB when compared to ALL of those players. I only used them for OBP. That's it.
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| Stolen bases are one category. They alone do not make a player deserving of an award. Longoria basically outstrips Ellsbury in every other statistical category. Ellsbury scores more runs too, which is obvious since he hits leadoff and Longoria hits fifth. Longoria does everything. He hits, fields, runs a little, and has some pop. Ellsbury can steal bases. So I don't know what the discussion is, really. |
Home runs are only one category. Ellsbury has at least as much pop as Longoria has speed. And he's a plays stronger defense with a weaker arm. In the end, they'll end up with about the same average and OBP. Oh, and if you look at ROY awards since 2002, a lot of players DID win based on one category. In addition to that, Longoria's power is good but he's not the best at what he does. Ellsbury is arguably the best in the AL at what he does. You can't say that for Longoria.
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darko
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 5326
Location: Melbourne, AUS
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:21 am Post subject: |
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Longoria - .272, 47 runs, 18 HRs, 58 RBIs, 6 SBs, .345 OBP
Ellsbury - .261, 60 runs, 5 HRs, 27 RBIs, 35 SBs, .332 OBP
And dont even try to bring Longoria's error count into this. I dont understand how you can compare an outfielder and a 3rd bagger defensively - 3rd bagger and SS yes, but not with an outfielder.
1 stat that doesnt show up is the number of runners that have advanced on Ellsbury's weak arm. Ellsbury has great range but his arm isn't any better than Johhny Damon's.
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UOKazem
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 476
Location: Montclair, New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:16 am Post subject: |
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I'm not just comparing the errors to each other.
If you take Ellsbury and look at how he's played this year, you can make the argument that he's been one of the top couple fielders at his position. You can't make the same argument when talking about Longoria.
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BNole
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 1148
Location: Palm Beach Gardens, FL
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| Homer.
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Cranky Canuck
Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 1125
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| UOKazem wrote: |
I'm not just comparing the errors to each other.
If you take Ellsbury and look at how he's played this year, you can make the argument that he's been one of the top couple fielders at his position. You can't make the same argument when talking about Longoria. |
Can you name me the last ROY in either league to win based on his defense???Not that i personally agree with that as every aspect of a player should be taken into account.
The voters go with numbers and Longoria has surpassed Ellsbury in the biggest one HR's.Case closed for Jacob.
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Grid
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 2097
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| UOKazem wrote: |
I'm not just comparing the errors to each other.
If you take Ellsbury and look at how he's played this year, you can make the argument that he's been one of the top couple fielders at his position. You can't make the same argument when talking about Longoria. |
I made this argument last year for Tulo over Braun, difference being that Tulo's offensive numbers were comparable or better in some respects than Braun, so his gold glove caliber fielding was significant imo because it was so close already. In this case though, Longoria is going to have Ellsburied in about a month barring a collapse or injury - it's not going to be close enough that fielding will factor in since the award is primarily offense oriented.
_________________
460 TD's and counting!
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